rollerdisco
posted by max on February 03, 2008 at 04:10:00 PM
ahoy mateys,
Just a quick post to let you know of a few happenings at the moment. A YTMND user is running for a seat in the house of representatives. One of my childhood idols is trying to sue me. I'm adding a new content box to the front page template and a bunch of new development info.
Read more for the hotness.
First off, YTMND user FreAkweNtcY is running for a seat in the house of representatives in Florida. So if you're crazy enough that you both live in Florida and think that the Diebold machines will count your vote properly, vote for him, maybe we can spice up CSPAN. Really though, it would be pretty amazing to get someone who is young enough that they are still in touch with the future of the country into any sort of political office.
Second up, Gary Larson, creator of The Far Side has contacted the YTMND Legal Team with multiple complaints about YTMNDs that feature cartoons of his. Here is one copy of the complaint, of importance is the "personal note" from Gary Larson himself.
I know it's been a while since I've posted a copyright complaint, but it's mainly due to the fact that at this point I receive so many that I just ignore them. The company that represents the Far Side has been persistent though, so I felt they deserved a response. Some of the (many) sites they mention as breaking copyright law:
So after you read the complaint check out the beauty of a response that was (for the most part) drafted by our crack legal counsel (who just happened to have made new ytmnd today).
Regarding the last news post, Cobalt sent in a document listing punishable behaviors and applicable punishments. BTape then made a wiki version using Cobalt's version as a base. Feel free to make your own versions on the wiki and discuss it on the talk pages. This is important stuff, so don't keep your opinions quiet.
I am going to be adding a "PoliticTMND" content box to the front page template for the upcoming primaries and elections, I haven't completed the list of applicable keywords yet, but any input on what you guys think should be included would be helpful, feel free to send me a comprehensive list in a PM. This content box will replace "Featured Users" for the time being.
Now, on to development updates. I've branched SVN into a new completely refactored design and started working on it full steam. I finally got around to setting up a (mostly) functioning copy of the site which is entirely separate from the live site, which is a fairly large accomplishment in itself.
One of the hardest parts about refactoring is that it basically involves rewriting huge amounts of code which in the end, if done correctly, function exactly the same as the code you originally had. This can be wholly unsatisfying and can cause you to easily lose focus.
There are so many things I want to do where I keep running into conflicting areas of the code and I have to make cascading code changes to change one small thing, it can be frustrating to say the least.
That being said, I've started to come up with a list of features I want to launch with the new version and I am streamlining a huge portion of the site. I've already completely rewritten a big chunk of the base functionality which will is a great upgrade to scalability and performance.
So once I finalize the list of features for "2.0", I will be posting it up here for everyone to get an idea of just how much the site will be changing. I hope to address a major chunk of the community's concerns and requests, as well as just cleaning up the hundreds of lazy bugs and pieces of the site that are hard to use (or were never implemented).
On a side note, I've deleted nearly 700 users over the past few months and plan on "clearing the queue" soon so site scores should normalize a bit. One of the big hurdles of the new system is the ability to allow moderators to delete users instantly but have the ability to restore them if anything goes wrong, so in the future, this should be less of an issue.
I know user moderation is one of the largest complaints here, and rightly so. The focus has always been to moderate sites, because (as I've said in the past) this was never intended to be a community site. I wish it were as easy as "delete anyone who causes trouble" but it isn't, and that's the fault of my original design for YTMND. There is a lot going on in the back end, so letting moderators delete users at will is currently an extremely risky proposition, because once someone is deleted, it is entirely permanent.
I know the way the system is designed promotes alts, down-voting and general trolling, but such is necessary in a system that promotes anyone to participate and enable free speech. That being said, the new system is going to have an extremely comprehensive set of checks to avoid the "alt problem" all together. I know talking about this in the future-tense will just make Afrotech mock and complain even further, but I'm going to implement some interim solutions to tide the surge of alt creation. Most importantly, I've limited account creation by IP to once every 24 hours. While this won't stop alts, it makes creating them a lot more of a chore. I will be further outlining what the new system will do to disable this behavior in the next news post.
I want to thank everyone for the overwhelming amount of feedback, and I want you to know I'm reading as much of it as I can, and I am really working to make YTMND a place we all want to visit on a regular basis again.
-Max
Just a quick post to let you know of a few happenings at the moment. A YTMND user is running for a seat in the house of representatives. One of my childhood idols is trying to sue me. I'm adding a new content box to the front page template and a bunch of new development info.
Read more for the hotness.
First off, YTMND user FreAkweNtcY is running for a seat in the house of representatives in Florida. So if you're crazy enough that you both live in Florida and think that the Diebold machines will count your vote properly, vote for him, maybe we can spice up CSPAN. Really though, it would be pretty amazing to get someone who is young enough that they are still in touch with the future of the country into any sort of political office.
Second up, Gary Larson, creator of The Far Side has contacted the YTMND Legal Team with multiple complaints about YTMNDs that feature cartoons of his. Here is one copy of the complaint, of importance is the "personal note" from Gary Larson himself.
I know it's been a while since I've posted a copyright complaint, but it's mainly due to the fact that at this point I receive so many that I just ignore them. The company that represents the Far Side has been persistent though, so I felt they deserved a response. Some of the (many) sites they mention as breaking copyright law:
- http://gmodfarside.ytmnd.com/
- http://farsidedinosaur.ytmnd.com/
- http://farsidesoh.ytmnd.com/
- http://garylarson2.ytmnd.com/
- http://catfud.ytmnd.com/
- http://duckwatch.ytmnd.com/
- http://garylarson.ytmnd.com/
- http://bears.ytmnd.com/
- http://laboratory-pressure.ytmnd.com/
- http://closetostolen.ytmnd.com/
- http://garylarsonisgay.ytmnd.com/
So after you read the complaint check out the beauty of a response that was (for the most part) drafted by our crack legal counsel (who just happened to have made new ytmnd today).
Regarding the last news post, Cobalt sent in a document listing punishable behaviors and applicable punishments. BTape then made a wiki version using Cobalt's version as a base. Feel free to make your own versions on the wiki and discuss it on the talk pages. This is important stuff, so don't keep your opinions quiet.
I am going to be adding a "PoliticTMND" content box to the front page template for the upcoming primaries and elections, I haven't completed the list of applicable keywords yet, but any input on what you guys think should be included would be helpful, feel free to send me a comprehensive list in a PM. This content box will replace "Featured Users" for the time being.
Now, on to development updates. I've branched SVN into a new completely refactored design and started working on it full steam. I finally got around to setting up a (mostly) functioning copy of the site which is entirely separate from the live site, which is a fairly large accomplishment in itself.
One of the hardest parts about refactoring is that it basically involves rewriting huge amounts of code which in the end, if done correctly, function exactly the same as the code you originally had. This can be wholly unsatisfying and can cause you to easily lose focus.
There are so many things I want to do where I keep running into conflicting areas of the code and I have to make cascading code changes to change one small thing, it can be frustrating to say the least.
That being said, I've started to come up with a list of features I want to launch with the new version and I am streamlining a huge portion of the site. I've already completely rewritten a big chunk of the base functionality which will is a great upgrade to scalability and performance.
So once I finalize the list of features for "2.0", I will be posting it up here for everyone to get an idea of just how much the site will be changing. I hope to address a major chunk of the community's concerns and requests, as well as just cleaning up the hundreds of lazy bugs and pieces of the site that are hard to use (or were never implemented).
On a side note, I've deleted nearly 700 users over the past few months and plan on "clearing the queue" soon so site scores should normalize a bit. One of the big hurdles of the new system is the ability to allow moderators to delete users instantly but have the ability to restore them if anything goes wrong, so in the future, this should be less of an issue.
I know user moderation is one of the largest complaints here, and rightly so. The focus has always been to moderate sites, because (as I've said in the past) this was never intended to be a community site. I wish it were as easy as "delete anyone who causes trouble" but it isn't, and that's the fault of my original design for YTMND. There is a lot going on in the back end, so letting moderators delete users at will is currently an extremely risky proposition, because once someone is deleted, it is entirely permanent.
I know the way the system is designed promotes alts, down-voting and general trolling, but such is necessary in a system that promotes anyone to participate and enable free speech. That being said, the new system is going to have an extremely comprehensive set of checks to avoid the "alt problem" all together. I know talking about this in the future-tense will just make Afrotech mock and complain even further, but I'm going to implement some interim solutions to tide the surge of alt creation. Most importantly, I've limited account creation by IP to once every 24 hours. While this won't stop alts, it makes creating them a lot more of a chore. I will be further outlining what the new system will do to disable this behavior in the next news post.
I want to thank everyone for the overwhelming amount of feedback, and I want you to know I'm reading as much of it as I can, and I am really working to make YTMND a place we all want to visit on a regular basis again.
-Max
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FREAKWENTCY FOR SENATOR? HOW ABOUT DARTHWANG FOR PRESIDENT... VOAT% FOR HIM HE WILL NEVER FORGET POLEND. HE WILL PROMISE TO VETO ANY ANTI-3500HZSQUAREWAVE LEGISLATURE PASSED BY KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANGRESS, HE WILL RAISE MINIMUM WAGE TO $599USDOLlARS, SO THERE WILL BE AN EPIC 88MPH RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDGE RACER IN EVERY GARAGE AND A TENDERCRISPBACONCHEDDARBANANAPHONE IN EVERY POT. ALSO AS CAPTAIN OF THE USS INTERNETS, HE WILL ENDORSE EPIC WIN BY GIVING EVERYONE A SECRETNAZISTAPLERPHONE TO GET ONLINE.
FREAKWENTCY FOR SENATOR? HOW ABOUT DARTHWANG FOR PRESIDENT... VOAT% FOR HIM HE WILL NEVER FORGET POLEND. HE WILL PROMISE TO VETO ANY ANTI-3500HZSQUAREWAVE LEGISLATURE PASSED BY KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANGRESS, HE WILL RAISE MINIMUM WAGE TO $599USDOLlARS, SO THERE WILL BE AN EPIC 88MPH RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDGE RACER IN EVERY GARAGE AND A TENDERCRISPBACONCHEDDARBANANAPHONE IN EVERY POT. ALSO AS CAPTAIN OF THE USS INTERNETS, HE WILL ENDORSE EPIC WIN BY GIVING EVERYONE A SECRETNAZISTAPLERPHONE TO GET ONLINE.
FREAKWENTCY FOR SENATOR? HOW ABOUT DARTHWANG FOR PRESIDENT... VOAT% FOR HIM HE WILL NEVER FORGET POLEND. HE WILL PROMISE TO VETO ANY ANTI-3500HZSQUAREWAVE LEGISLATURE PASSED BY KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANGRESS, HE WILL RAISE MINIMUM WAGE TO $599USDOLlARS, SO THERE WILL BE AN EPIC 88MPH RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDGE RACER IN EVERY GARAGE AND A TENDERCRISPBACONCHEDDARBANANAPHONE IN EVERY POT. ALSO AS CAPTAIN OF THE USS INTERNETS, HE WILL ENDORSE EPIC WIN BY GIVING EVERYONE A SECRETNAZISTAPLERPHONE TO GET ONLINE.
FREAKWENTCY FOR SENATOR? HOW ABOUT DARTHWANG FOR PRESIDENT... VOAT% FOR HIM HE WILL NEVER FORGET POLEND. HE WILL PROMISE TO VETO ANY ANTI-3500HZSQUAREWAVE LEGISLATURE PASSED BY KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANGRESS, HE WILL RAISE MINIMUM WAGE TO $599USDOLlARS, SO THERE WILL BE AN EPIC 88MPH RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDGE RACER IN EVERY GARAGE AND A TENDERCRISPBACONCHEDDARBANANAPHONE IN EVERY POT. ALSO AS CAPTAIN OF THE USS INTERNETS, HE WILL ENDORSE EPIC WIN BY GIVING EVERYONE A SECRETNAZISTAPLERPHONE TO GET ONLINE.
FREAKWENTCY FOR SENATOR? HOW ABOUT DARTHWANG FOR PRESIDENT... VOAT% FOR HIM HE WILL NEVER FORGET POLEND. HE WILL PROMISE TO VETO ANY ANTI-3500HZSQUAREWAVE LEGISLATURE PASSED BY KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANGRESS, HE WILL RAISE MINIMUM WAGE TO $599USDOLlARS, SO THERE WILL BE AN EPIC 88MPH RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDGE RACER IN EVERY GARAGE AND A TENDERCRISPBACONCHEDDARBANANAPHONE IN EVERY POT. ALSO AS CAPTAIN OF THE USS INTERNETS, HE WILL ENDORSE EPIC WIN BY GIVING EVERYONE A SECRETNAZISTAPLERPHONE TO GET ONLINE.
Can you delete all of a user's votes without ripping the back end open (so to speak)? That's my request. Just delete all the votes someone makes if they're obviously using numerous accounts to effect ratings. The accounts themselves are not the problem as I see it. If someone wastes huge amounts of time here multivoting, they'll get sick of having to start from scratch if delete the votes on each of their accounts.
The way it currently works is that site scores are a hash of all user votes which gets updated when a user makes a vote, so by deleting a user's votes you aren't accomplishing anything without updating the hash. On top of that, deleting a user's votes is permanent, and it can be difficult to tell when a user merits deletion. Ideally we want a system where pretty much any mod can delete people at any time and then in hindsight have all of their related data brought back.
In effect, the problem is neither having alt accounts or even deleting drone voting users, but negating the damage they do. If someone has 10 accounts, they can down-vote something off the up and coming. Even if we delete those users (and their votes) damage has already been done. Rather than trying to keep up with the infinite battle of users abusing multiple accounts, I think it's more important to make the abuse much harder to accomplish.
Methods could include limiting sign-ups by IP permanently or requiring moderator approval of sign-ups, disabling voting for a 72 hour period after account creation, a "soft" voting algorithm that doesn't update scores instantly but instead updates scores quicker for older accounts and slower for new accounts etc. The idea here is that if you manage to make a ton of alts and keep them around for a long time, they will be just as effective as they are currently, but they will be far easier to catch.
Hmmm, I see your dilemma, but I just find that what has happened in the last year+ is that alts went from being totally taboo except by certain users to being something even the most "respected" users are doing because without them you get, well, ratings like mine! I agree that deleting someone's votes after the damage has been done doesn't fix that specific issue. but in the mean time, because everyone knows that nothing will happen to you, user after user is acting in the worst case scenario behavior.
I watched three totally different users make new accounts to upvote their total garbage just this morning alone. When I called one guy out on it (as did VIsraWratS), he turned his alts on us. So at this point, an "honest" user can neither effectively report the behavior to a mod nor, as a community, call out bad behavior without certain reprisals. And thus, the only users benefiting are the ones being total twits.
Not deleting votes/accounts will leave everyone who knows they won't get in trouble to do as they please and will continue to encourage bad behavior from everyone who is already engaged in it. The result is to watch people either leave totally or to start up their own upvoting accounts to raise sites to the vote levels they assume they'd have received, thus perpetuating the problem.
Well theoretically, you should always be able to speak with a mod in confidence, and while at the moment immediate action isn't always taken, in the future mechanisms will be in place that such action can be taken right then and there. There is always going to be some measure of "revenge" voting, even in a system where alts don't exist. Trying to police that behavior is, in my opinion, a waste of time as well as being incredibly hard to define and determine in some cases.
One of the main priorities is quell "utility alts", or alts that are only used for score manipulation. It is basically impossible to have a social system such as YTMND where everyone can vote and everyone is also an author without some sort of "untrue voting". The key is to just level the playing field, and to make sure that users who try to cheat just aren't allowed to participate. Not discouraging bad behavior is not the same as encouraging it or encouraging other bad behavior to counter it.
OK, I hear you. I just haven't heard you mention an actual "consequence" for the users who get caught in the past. I get that you're worried about turning people into trolls through banning. But I'm worried you're going to be left with nothing but trolls if something doesn't change. Thus, I eagerly await to see some massive abusers get their comeuppance.
The account creation limiting is an interim solution. The rules (which I keep mentioning) are what will govern how to punish users that continually try to cheat the system. Even now, I delete a lot of "mains" if they have a lot of alts to cheat/harass with, but I'm just one person and only a small amount of my time is devoted to moderation. In theory, a single user targeting another user should not be able to affect their overall site scores. Mass alt voting should soon be a concern of the past.
At this point I understand where the bitching comes from, as it's a feeling I share. At the same time it's hard not to feel completely helpless, because when it comes down to it, I am managing, coding and maintaining this massive system all by myself. It's easy to complain that I am unresponsive and nothing ever gets done, but I know people would act differently if they saw me sit in my boxers day after day with dark circles under my eyes working 18 hour days on stupid sh*t like functions to censor text.
I disagree heavily with skinja, that is an awful idea. Also, no site can turn up your speaker volume and nothing about a loud site makes it NOT SAFE FOR WORK. You should have SFW, NSFW, and IAASPFTCFOHTTDMOSV (I Am A Stupid Pansie F*ggot That Cannot Figure Out How To Turn Down My Own Speaker Volume) settings for users to classify their accounts to access. If you don't want to see gaping anus, you don't want NSFW sites, if you can't figure out your own speakers, disable IAASPFTCFOHTTDMOSV sites.
Sorry Max, now that I actually watched them I think my favorite would have to be Bud Light ability to breathe fire commercial. But I think for the next 2 years we should have a fund raiser to raise 2.7 million dollars so we can air a YTMND commercial. I can see it now; "YTMND: A relationship without sex. Sometimes she hates you, sometimes she likes you, most of the time you don't know what she's talking about and about twice a month she says something that makes you laugh."
Would it be feasible to block image and sound assets after they have been used x amount of time (like 5 for image and 200 for sound)? It would really help reduce the amount of junk posted here. I know all someone has to do is change one thing and a new asset ID is created, but most of the idiots who go to the "intrawebs" for site material are too stupid or lazy to figure that out. It would be nice not to hear Spanish Flea as much.
I know there's the warning, but everyone ignores. Unless you can add some text to the site that says "This image has been used 76 times. Don't five this site." Stupid personal sites and screen shots sites don't bother me as much as seeing yet other site with Brian Pepper's coming at you in a speedo.
I think it is safe to say that, if things keep going the way they are now, there will never be another site that gets past 3,000 votes. It seems that every month the user base goes down even more and more. I see sites that take days to get off up and coming compared to a year ago when a single site can garner up to 500 votes after a single day of creation even with an up and coming limit of 300 votes. But that should be the least of our concerns, let alone one of them.
A post in the last news section mentioned that Sites such as "Holy f*cken Sh*t a dinosaur" got 7k votes on nsfw always. No nsfw sites has gotten close to 1,000 votes in along time. I can't pinpoint the exact reason why for some reason, but it probably does have to do with the lack of users. Ive also noticed that fads have gone down. What active fad is there? Politics? phooie. Carmine? 8? Thats it. And that isn't even that good. Hell nutnics had to make a site about giant enemy crab, an old fad.
Though I feel it really isn't to much of a primary problem to deal with (well, it really can't be dealt with), I think YTMND's current state could be somewhat better if there were more users... or at least more voters among the users. And nsfw sites get an even worse beat down in lack of votes. I dunno, it just seems that there will never be another site that makes it to the 'most voted on' of all time list, and to make that list nowadays a site would need 3200+ votes.
The reason sites tagged as NSFW don't get a lot of views and votes is because those sites are hidden on the front page for most users. By default those sites are hidden unless you change it under the options. Most people don't know that. The only fads that are popular are ones that can be done in 5 minutes or less (see Lando). Because those fads are turned out so quickly, they only last a day (see I going to ___ this everyday until you ___).
^well I've known that nsfw sites are hidden from the front page. And I know about the quick 5 minute fads as well (most of which that were not even funny to begin with). I wish there was some way to encourage users to vote more, perhaps it would get rid of the new wave of overrated sites and balance out the 5's that are being handed out everywhere. Maybe that would encourage users who have left this website to come back or even new users to join.
That being said, I really can't think of any frontage design that could effectively replace the top 5, which is where almost all of the sites with 4,000 votes or more gained it from back before the layout change in 2006. The most recent site that passed 2000 votes needed a 4.7 rating. Yet at the same time as I continue to discuss this lack of voting topic, it is most likely that nobody cares about the lack of voting anyways, as most users will not even consider it a problem.
"Lets not forget ytmnsfw.com existed, it made some difference." It did, but mainly because there was less site rotation, it was easier to get views. I do wish it was back. A big problem is most people don't hang out and learn what YTMND is about. There are so many accounts made this year that were created to bash someone on a forum (http://www.ytmnd.com/users/imepicmystery/ to name one).
I'm worried about punishing upvoters (you'll understand if you look at my voting history). Basically, I give high scores to sites that I think are good, but I don't give low scores to ones that I don't, on the basis that I might not understand said sites. In the latter case, I'd be punishing someone for my ignorance. Just some food for thought.
Now why would what TMM just said have anything to do with me? Are you really so stupid JJJ that you don't get my point? Let me type this very slowly for you: I. have. no. problem. with. single. voters. no. matter. how. they. vote. As I've said many times, it's the multiple votes that are the problem. Users like TMM wouldn't bug me anymore than a single-voting straight dver. How is that hard to understand? I'm starting to see why you've attracted so much negative attention.
THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE THANKS DAVE
logged in to say d/c. But while I'm here one idea I like is votes by new users being delayed a bit or whatever. For me it took awhile to get to the point where I could not care who it was and just vote fairly 99% of the time. I downvoted, upvoted, narv voted, beat off while voting - everything. It takes time and you have to learn to ignore all the f*ggots who just vote 5 so people will 5 them back and whom you choose to feature thus encouraging unrealistic voting while claiming here to want it to stop. heh