It does matter if i kill someone or love them, its the differance between a life in jail, or a normal life.

If you need the idea that there is a supreme being that controls everything that happens in the universe to keep from killing your kids, then you shouldn't have any.

This from the man that stated "racism is wrong" how could it be wrong without a supreme being? LMAO I'd love to see you make any logical argument on equality. LMAO

lol, closemindedness.

in the cosmic scheme of things the earth blowing up really is insignificant though..

emo

isn't the fact that we are alive significant, no matter how small we are?

I think he has a major flaw in logic, that atheists simply because they dont belive they should form their lives around a fear of a fictional book, have no sense of right or wrong. Saying that because we do not believe in god, we are no better than murderers, rapists and nazis, simply because ....if we aren't religious, we must not belive in anything good.

Star, there is no good or bad. WTF are you arguing that atheists can believe in anything good? WTF is good? It's a feeble, fabricated concept. Of course atheists are no better than murderers, neither are believers, they are all insignificant nothings on a small blue dot in the middle of nowhere. Face facts buddy.

That's not an atheism, that's existentialism, silly!

if this is supposed to be an argument for religion it kinda refutes itself anyhow, pointing out that in the vast nothingness of the universe, pretending that we're important, or meaningful is simply fooling ourselves, on either side of the moral/religious argument.

"Face facts buddy." Okay then, friend... What is your honest opinion on wether the fact you were murdered or not? Not only you, but before you died, everything you enjoyed, everything you "loved" if you believe in sucha thing, was destroyed or brutaly murdered before your eyes, not only that, but you had only to say "Stop" and they would be spared and you would die slowly and painfully, and they would be free to live about their lives. You die either way, but would you choose to let them live and you die so

-sooner, and in agony. or would you choose to prolong your life, if only for a few minutes, and let your loved ones suffer before you are killed in a similar fashion? Which would you choose? Do you really believe that their lives are meaningless and you, and they, will both die eventually, might as well be now? Please, tell me. I want your honest opinion, of which i am sure i will not get.

Oh, and if i don't reply, it's because i've already stopped caring if you tell me or not and didn't bother to come back to this site to discover the answer.

The decision I would make in such an occasion has no more meaning than the decision a caterpillar makes on which branch to crawn onto. What does my sight receptacles receiving the reflection of light of beings I am fond of being tortured and murdered have to do with anything? So what if it makes me feel bad seeing that. It's just chemical reactions my brain processes as a result of a few million years of evolution to help us function more efficiently as a species.

I think I said it better, and with less words, greatevilbetty.

Wow. Your athiest view is pretty damn cynical and dreary.

LAWLS why are you guys getting so angry with reality? that you are all meaningless nothings, that go about meaningless lives? What's the big deal? You are weak minded, emotionally imprisoned, worker bees.

Maximus, that is such a carebear hippiefest view of the pale blue dot. We must respect, blah blah. Who the @#$ says we must? The only thing we must do is whatever the hell we feel like. And if telling other people they are going to hell makes you happy, do it. If crying like a hippie when you see sites that tell other people they are going to hell makes you happy do it. That's all that matters. Screw everyone else.

"you are all meaningless nothings, that go about meaningless lives?" Meaningless in a cosmic sense, yes. But we are not meaningless to the people around us that we care about. And THAT is what's important. You could look at it your way, but then suicide is probably the best path, because your life is inherently meaningless to not only the universe, but everthing and everyone in the universe, including those of us on good old planet Earth.

You're emo. Also, I'm Atheist and really really don't live like that. Retard.

This is a pretty half assed athiest parody, in all honesty.

On some points i agree with you, on others i don't. just want you to know that i too believe that the universe is a big place, and should all the inhabitants of earth ceace to exist, the impact on the universe as a whole would microscopic if anything. Why should the universe care if 6 billion lives are snuffed out in an instant? As far as we know, there could be an infinite number of other such lives, all over the universe, and TRILLIONS of them are dying every moment. The impact it has is none. That i ag

LMAO being important to the people around you is no more meaningful than being important to some mosquitos that feed off your blood. It's all fancy little concepts you come up with in your mind to pretend you mean anything.

your point? that's not a refutation of the comments made.

"It's all fancy little concepts you come up with in your mind to pretend you mean anything." Maybe so, but I'm sure as hell enjoying my life thats devoid of meaning.

-agree with. What i disagree with is your easoning that, since nothing we do matters, if i murder my own children no one should care since the universe doesn't care. The REASON the universe doesn't care is because it's got so much bigger things to occupy it's time with, in the big scheme of things, it DOESN'T really matter. But it does matter to us. To me. To YOU, despite how you say otherwise. If it didn't really matter to you, you wouldn't be here trying to impose such beliefs apon us. You wouldn't give

Well of course it would matter to you if you killed your own children. But that's only because you allow yourself to be ruled by emotions.

-a damn if we cares, because it doesn't matter that we care. You DO care, you're just trying to act as though you don't. My life matters to me, because i matter to others, and they matter to other people, who are important to others, who also matter to more people, and more and more and more. We, as a race and planet, are all contected to eachother, if loosely, that the death of one person DOES change the whole planet, despite what you may believe. It may not be immediate, it may not even effect you, perso

"But that's only because you allow yourself to be ruled by emotions." I like my emotions. Happiness is pretty sweet. You should try it sometime.

Oh you do charity work? You should be given the emo award of teh century. For thinking you can make a difference, when nothing the human race does matters one iota anyways.

-personally, but it will effect someone you know, or someone they know, or even further down the list. Indirectly everyone influences everyone else, so every person matters. You matter to me because should you die, i know that it will effect someone close to you, who is close to someone else, whom knows a friend of a relative of mine, therefore becoming indirectly relevant to me via that relative whom passes on the information to me during a family gathering. I hope you don't die in a fire.

"For thinking you can make a difference, when nothing the human race does matters one iota anyways." Why did you make this YTMND? It's existance is dependent on this planet and the human race. By your logic, this YTMND is pointless, and doesn't matter one iota. So why make it? Perhaps because you are a tool.

Without our emotions, what would we be? You are expressing emotions at this very minute, you feel emotions, does that mean you too are also ruled by them? My emotions rule me, because without emotion YTMND wouldn't exist, this conversation would never be happening, all the good things there are in the world would would have never existed had we had no emotion. Nothing the human race does matters, to the universe as a whole. Everything the human race does, matters immensely to the human race, and that is wh

-what is important. Who gives a damn if the universe doesn't care about us? Well, we shouldn't care about it either, so even though nothing we do in our lives matters on the big scale, on the small scale it is the most important thing that could ever happen.

Right to hurt others? Does a hyena have a "right" to steal a lions food? Rights are another feeble concept. The hyena steals the food because it's hungry. why should it care what the lion thinks of it? What makes you any more important than a lion?

You are obviously emo in your posts. You resort to personal attacks. Why? Something is obviously getting to you. I far from 15 am I :P

Ah.... MaximiusPryme, didn't you know that that is the time in every inernet boys life where they thing they are the absolute sh*t? I used to be that was as well, in fact i was worse, because i was more convincing and condensending.

is that like half way between being a smart *ss and turning into liquid

"You resort to personal attacks." "You should be given the emo award" "that is such a carebear hippiefest view" "You are weak minded, emotionally imprisoned, worker bees." By your definition you too are emo. Of course, i don't think you're emo, maybe depressed, but not emo. Emo's are full of f*ggotry, you're more along the lines of, "I know more than you therefore i'm better than you, so EAT SH*T AND DIE!"

Now resorting to the teaming up? Love that maneuver. Because if we are going to be wrong, at least we will be wrong together. But get back to the entertainment. Tell me more how you construct your concept of self worth. Your friends care about you.... keep going...

I'm actually enjoying this. I haven't held a debate is so long, it's refreashing.

So the electronic signals that make up the minds of people you commune with are significant enough to mean what?

I'm glad you are enjoying yourself. Maybe even someone as horrible and ghastly as I can give people meaning. :P

"So the electronic signals that make up the minds of people you commune with are significant enough to mean what?" The electrical signals are meaningless. The information they convey on the other hand...

" There is a difference between sacrifice, and being an *ssh*l*e. " Only in your limited mind my friend. But give me a medium. Give me a concrete source that you can base that statement on as fact.

"Maybe even someone as horrible and ghastly as I can give people meaning." The only person you are giving meaning to with this YTMND is yourself.

Exactly! Self worth! The universe has such a big perspective that it isn't bothered to think about us, just as we aren't bothered to think about the infinite numbers of bacteria and microcelled organisms that cover our planet. To ME, my life is important.Man exists before his existence has value or meaning. This value or meaning, and the value or meaning of the world around him, man defines himself in his own subjectivity, and wanders between choice, freedom, and existential angst.

"Give me a concrete source that you can base that statement on as fact." I say the same to you.

Concrete sources are meaningless. They are all contructs created by mankind to give worth to what he sees around him..etc...etc...

The information they convey are no more significant than the bits of data traveling out and into your computer from the tubes and tubes of internets. That you give it significance is the only claim you can make. Just as a tiny ant sees the speck of dirt it is carrying for its home as significant. But is it REALLY significant? What we find is that "significance" itself is just a construct of our mind that has no footing in factual reality.

See^^^ I called that one.

Now you are starting to get it.

"But is it REALLY significant?" Apon whose reality are you basing this on? My reality? Your reality? The ants reality? The universes reality? Every person lives in their own reality, what is real to one person isn't necessarily real to another. What is significant to me isn't the same to you, it's all about perspective and reality. Saying that nothing you do matters is only true within your reality.

"Now you are starting to get it. " Not really. You're just becoming predictable.

Maximus isn't though. He still is basing significance on his own opinions. Me killing another human, or a lion killing a zebra, it matters not what reason was behind it. That the organism doing the killing is satisfied with the results of its actions is all that really matters. If Indians peed on the corpses of the animals they killed and laughed at their slaughter it would make no difference. All that matters is what is, stop putting emotional meanings behind things.

"All that matters is what is, stop putting emotional meanings behind things." All that has meaning is powered by emotion. So if something has no emotion, it has no meaning. You obviously feel emotions, therefor you have meaning.

Emotion clouds perception. Biases knowledge. It's pointless.

I lol'd. but seriously... while killing my kids may seem like it doesn't matter in light of the universe being so damn big, it sure does matter to me, and to the local police, and probably to my kids. As human beings we create a "social" universe. On a local level, in the time and space that I live, breath, and work... it means alot. This isn't just being "ruled by emotions"... but by our society... which includes religion, family, school, government, and websites like this one...

If that human has more means to live wealthy than you, and you could take their life without being caught and gain the same means, there is plenty to accomplish for yourself.

"If that human has more means to live wealthy than you, and you could take their life without being caught and gain the same means, there is plenty to accomplish for yourself." That doesn't make any damn sense. How does killing a person give you their means? I feel like I'm watching the Simpsons. Moe-"If I kill you, do I become you?"

If the a lion kills a zebra to live, and by killing that zebra, he kills the only source of food for the offspring of the zebra it killed. Yes the offspring will find it pretty significant, however the offspring of the lion are gaining nutrition out of the deal. So how is that any different from a human stealing from another human? Sure one suffers, but the other gains, so it balances out. Of course we have to punish the aggressor if he is caught, in order to keep the peace.

"Emotion clouds perception. Biases knowledge. It's pointless." "If that human has more means to live wealthy than you, and you could take their life without being caught and gain the same means, there is plenty to accomplish for yourself." Dear lord! Would you listen to your own contradictions? Do you even... Nevermind, i've had enough of this conversation. Congradulations, you won this argument/debate over the internet. You didn't succede in changing my perspectives on anything, only helped to reinforce th

So if a lion kills another lion for trying to mount his lioness or for coming onto his marked territory, how is that for survival? It's about propagation of his DNA.

-them. You win simply because of the fact that i have to go to sleep and no longer feel like debating. Good night. Congradulations of your victory. I wonder what smart-ass reply you will come up for this one? Maybe somehting to do with, "I was never trying to win anything" blah, blah, blah... Goodnight.

I love reinforcing th

I was never trying to win anything. blah blah

"Well it should be society as a whole" No it should not. It should be every individual for themselves. What benefit do I get out of the greater good? So what if society is better off in 50 years when I wont be alive? You have fallen victim to the brainwashing of society, in order to benefit itself. Each man is his own universe. Make your own laws, live like you have no life left. Just don't get caught.

"Just don't get caught." lol, you nub. that is liek, stupid. ur stuppd. dis YMNDT is stupid. go sumwere else and bitch, nub.

No. I made palebluedot to try and convay how an atheist can see how insignificant all of our (flame) wars, fighting and selfishishness is - in the grand scheme of things. And then try to explain that it's that very sense of isolation that makes us what to protect each other, and our only pale blue dot we've ever known, despite not having a god.

You sound like an angry teenager who hates the popular kids at his school and just read Nietzsche for the first time. I'm inclined to investigate psychologically. You say do whatever makes you happy, if killing a bunch of people makes you happy, do it. But a follow up question is why do some people have the impulse to kill a bunch and are made happy from that while the majority of people aren't. I'm sure you're going to say "OMG, secret conspiracy of society to make you feel false guilt when really...

...you could shed that and be a superman" but I think that's a misperception. I think the only way someone is OK with killing others(other than something like war where there is great social pressure and justifications thrown at you to do things-and even there, there is a coarsening an traumatizing) is if they are psychologically screwed up from trauma. People who 'get what they need' psychologically, so to speak, don't WANT to do things like that even if they shed god, and any official morality.

Perhaps the fact that you perceive things this way is more indicative of your own psychological state at the moment whether you're conscious of it or not, then it is of any greater truth you think you've arrived at in the face of 'stupid society that wants to control you'

While I agree wholeheartedly that good is a point of view, I do think that we should do everything in our power to not harm things. Even if we're insignifigant to the rest of the universe, we still matter to each other. Make someone smile today. Give out a five or two. Tell someone that you care about them. Because really, just as much as good is a point of view, so is the concept of love and hate. And I've figured out my own definition for them both.

And speaking of them, I also know what makes me happy, so I choose to spread the cheer around. So what if nothing we do matters to the rest of the universe. I don't believe in any god, but I do believe that so long as I've made a difference to someone, I'll at least live a bit longer in their mind than I live on Earth. It doesn't matter to me how, where, or when I die, what matters to me most is that I'm able to spread any and all happiness I feel. So here's a 5, I hope it makes you happy to get it.

and if a 55 ft. bonfire fell over and killed a bunch of drunken rednecks... yawn.

-1

Grasping for meaning, is funneh. Keep it up.

It was taller than 55ft wasn't it?

Snerk, if I was "screwed up psychologically" in YOUR view and found all the most joy in life from putting a shoe on my head, or from burying people in the ground, what difference does it make if it falls into line with the psychology of the rest of the world? Who get's the standard for you to judge me on? If I pursue happiness through such means, and achieve it, I am just as successful at life as anyone else.

Ooops, sorry. missed the point. Try again. Consider the photograph. Consider how far away it was taken. Consider how far humanity has yet to go. If we all blow up, sure it was all for naught. If we travel the stars, however... The universe is not ours, as the religious folks like to say. And there is morality outside of imaginary deities.

Morality is what you make it. And there is no way to refute anyone's own morality. Because you and someone else agree it's immoral to kill another doesn't make it so my friend. As I say, each person is their own universe. You have no monopoly on morality.

I guess the score of 1.75 pretty much says something

No

I think the idea is that it's okay to do whatever you want so long as it doesn't keep someone else from doing what they want, too. So killing someone is wrong because it keeps someone else from living. Most people would be willing to bet that that person wanted to do something with their life other than dying. And to the comment claiming this is existentialism, it's not. It's nihilism. Existentialism states that we exist, but we are not given a purpose. We, individually, have to give life purpose.

Thank you for that revelation. Now, please excuse me while I go kill some children.

I wouldnt want to live a lie and follow a god around like a blind sheep. Thats happiness. also Mother Teresa and Adolph Hitler shared many similarities. Although one looked "good" and the other looked "bad". They still followed the same "God" and both desired more power. Whether it was money or total dominance of the world.

Wow this sounds like a cry for help. You sound afraid. It seems like your outlook on the world is so pessimistic that there must be a God.

Gotta love the underlying pessimism behind Christianity. "Life is meaningless and worthless, so to give it value there MUST be an afterlife." "The universe is so evil and terrible that there must be a God to make it all better." "People are so innately evil that the only thing that keeps them from being utterly evil is belief in God"

"It seems like your outlook on the world is so pessimistic " How is it pessimistic? Why is it bad to realize that good and bad, right and wrong are all contrived concepts of a insignificant species of mammals on an insignificant planet in an insignificant solar system? Seems to me it can be optimism. No matter how anyone lives their life, no matter how many people they hurt, all that matters is what each person believes. If they believe they did right, it matters not what anyone else thinks.

And so begins the ytmnd holy war.... :P *continues eating an orange.*

Again, it's only "right" or "good" if it doesn't infringe upon other peoples' right to do what they want as well. Because why are your (that's a general "your"; not talking specificially about you) actions any more important than someone else's? Doesn't that contradict your (that's a specific "your") entire theory? And I don't mean "How would you feel if the child you shot killed you instead?", I mean that by killing said child, you have taken away his freedom the same way he'd take away yours if he'd shot

(cont'd) you. It's not a question of "How does X make you feel" or "What do you think about Y". It's simply that we only are what we know. And all we know is Earth. And we're all stuck here on Earth. So again I ask, why is one person's action or opinion more valuable than another's?

Those are social constructs so as to make our society the most efficient, fair society we can for each inhabitant. It's more or less an agreement that we all benefit from. But we are talking principle here. Morality goes no further than the mind that defines it. No on is right. There is no right. There only is. So if enslaving a race of people and building your wealth makes you happy, all you are doing is violating the common agreement most humans have bowed to. In the end, you are as right as anyone else.

But I am talking about principle. The principle is that by enslaving that race, you've left them devoid of the ability to...say, do the same thing to another race. So, no, there is no "right", I'm not here to contest that point. Right is what you, either as an individual or a society, make it. But there is most certainly a wrong. The only wrong is to keep others from fulfilling what they define as right. So by that theory, yes, stopping Hitler would be wrong. But Hitler would have been wrong to stop other

(cont'd) people from doing what they want, so at that point it just becomes a battle between what's the worst of the two evils. Not to mention that Hitler also brainwashed millions of his own people to believe what he did, but that's beside the point. Basically, "right" is what you make it, wrong is stopping others from achieving what they percieve as right.

Wrong is thinking that you have a monopoly on the term "wrong". It's not "wrong" to stop others. Not if the person doing it doesn't think it's wrong. You are imposing your concept of "fair" and saying that it's morality. Who made you a god?

perfect, and true. You win.

I could easily ask you the same question. "Not if the person doing it doesn't think it's wrong"? That would mean you're valuing one person's opinion more than another's, which violates your entire theory.

I'm not saying the guy is right. I'm saying that right and wrong go no further than our own minds. Everything else is simply trying to impose one's beliefs.