Why God Exists (Updated with Q and A at the end)
Created on: September 7th, 2006
WARNING: My comments are NSFW. Please evaluate and vote based on the merits and quality of the YTMND not based on your religious standpoint. If you have an objection, post below and I will address it in the YTMND at the end.
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You're actually saying there is NO god, since he turned INTO the universe.
Also your theory follows no theological text, hence it has no devinity, it is not the god mentioned by the christian, muslims, or any other uniterian belief.
Also, you've neglected to explain why only intelligence can create intelligence and just what intelligence is, for example, is an amoeba intelligent?
However, it is proof of Hinduism.
Brahma was the cause universe.
Vishnu is the universe.
And Shiva will be what will b
I purpose that any argument based on a assumption cannot be proved. You assume that since non-living objects are not intelligent and cannot cause events to occur, than the creation of the universe cannot occur without intelligence causing it. This argument is flawed in that it requires a leap of faith. However, I welcome civil and intelligent debate on this subject.
This argument had holes in it. Every argument on this comment page also has holes in it. No human, possibly no organism within this universe, is capable of understanding what occurred before the big bang, assuming 'before the big bang' is an accurate way of describing it. The only thing anybody is saying on this page is that they don't understand anymore than anyone else. BTW, 5'd cuz it was a WELL-MADE PRESENTATION and you dared to do something different
if god created the universe, which god? christianitys god or the greek gods; or what other religious god? and something had to create the world that "god" lives. so this can't be true because there would be powers greater than the god/s and the creators of the god/s and the cycle would go on forever. yet i'm no genius at this, i'm just expressing ideas is all....
You were doing good until the -Alive characteristic and everything after that. First off, life isn't always created by life; evolution, lol. We've also found microorganisms that exist in volcanic areas that can support absolutely no other life, meaning they were created through specific conditions regarding elements and substances in a certain area. The biggest mistake, of course, was "God is the first thing ever, so nothing came before Him", which pretty much means you just contradicted the entire -
sorry your first objection killed everything. It's not like asking who the first president before George Washington is, it's like asking who was the governing body prior to washington and there are many sufficient answers to it. Also, In doing that first objection, you cancelled out every piece of your argument, if nothing was able to create god, then how come the universe creating itself is so unreal?
ALRIGHT, here we go: way back, people didnt have any morals or anything to teach others about good behavior. So, being gulible back then and impressionable, you could just come up with something simple, since you can't prove how everything was created. So what happens? some person decides to write a story telling the book of morals and the creation of earth. many people belived in it since, well, what else would you belive in at that time? Now we are smart enough to have discovered the universe and how it
(continued)... and how it works. Since it is (LONG) outdated more and more people are, well just deciding to not belive it anymore. THERE IS NO, repeat NO scientific evidence supporting religon. BUT there is many theroys and actual scientific facts depicting how the universe was created.....................................................................................................
if god was real, then where the f*ck did he come from idiots. lol.
Okay so let's say you are correct and there is a God. Who do we believe in? Just about every religion begins with a God creating the universe, but each has severe consequences for coveting 'other gods'. So basically we can guess, and have a 1 in 3000 chance of getting it right and not suffering for all eternity. Sweet.
Wow. That is some Grade A pseudo-philosophical bullsh*t. What about other religions? By your logic, every religion is correct because something had to happen prior to its creation to cause it. Does that mean Xenu really does exist? Also, good research usually involves going beyond wikipedia.com (don’t bother to note that not all of them are). Try perhaps opening up a book or two. Fail.
This is a terrible YTMND. It is a long, futile exercise of my time and patience. Creationism is the supreme modern day cop-out for Christians everywhere. You are not Christians. You are conspiracy theorists who sell-out your faith to the masses for the sake of plausibility. At most other times in history, you would be burned in piles for spouting this nonsense. You've completely strayed from your faith to take part in the infantile, "No, idiots, God is teh reel!111" argument. 2 for the time you put into it.
Casuality is much more complex than you assume. Your logic is a bit faulty (Althoug I really like your expansion of the second law of thermodynamics). Non-intelligence cannot cause intelligence? Is this a fact? I doubt that, because a clearly unintelligent non-sentient pair of cells cause creation of human beings in a process we call reproduction. There are countless exaples of something innately "lesser" causing something "more." A fast moving neutron, which is infintesimal in size >>>
Causality doesnt state the universe was caused by God, but by the big bang (like a acorn becoming a tree, it doesnt practice or have someone replace the acorn with a tree). AND the "first cause" doesnt need to be "super natural" it could be a natural event (big bang). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang
Also explains things Like RED SHIFT.
For how life came to be:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-Urey_experiment
First off, this wasn't funny at all. Well made, but boring. Secondly, the logic in it isn't logic but semantics and shallow thinking. The principle of cause and effect does NOT point to a "God" and further, we do not even know if cause and effect existed before the universe. Therefore, we can't say that the universe needed a cause in order for it to come into existence. Further, the universe may not have had a beginning as we can comprehend it at the present juncture.
do you really think you are that sweet? ok first of all using the arguement (spelling wrong, i know, don't care)of causality is ridiculous, because then anyone can ask the question: well what was before god? also, science doesn't even try to explain what was before the big bang or how the super duper massive ball of matter/anti-matter got there, or what triggered it. so congratulations, you just made absolutely no progress in proving the existance of god. valid effort though.
Also, how can you say that it was definitely a GOD that created the first cause- the effect of which was the universe's existance? God refers to something sentient and aware of what it is doing, doesn't it? Therefore, you suppose that in order to cause the universe something would have had to have actively planned its actions, which is not a logical next step but a total supposition. Does a mud slide plan to kill hundreds of people at the base of a mountain? God can't be proven now and likely never will be.
Another interesting point: If God DOSEN'T exist and DIDN'T make the universe, then what did? "things floating in space?" ... No...
In Order for these things to exist, they would have to be created in the first place. By assuming that they were already there to form the universe, you autimatically assume that somthing happened to make those things in the first place.
And you should never make assumptions... cause you make an *** out of yourself... and umptions.
>>> (hmm ignore the blank - this is the middle section) ... can cause a monstrous nuclear reaction. Likewise a tiny singularity could cause an entire Universe. I might as well state this: Religion is NOT science. Scientific theories, that need to be proven do not apply to religious beliefs. Throughout the history, Humankind used religion to fill the void in our minds, where scientific fact, explaining the concepts and ideas, that were not at the time possible to properly explain, would later reside.
Another interesting point: If God DOSEN'T exist and DIDN'T make the universe, then what did? "things floating in space?" ... No...
In Order for these things to exist, they would have to be created in the first place. By assuming that they were already there to form the universe, you autimatically assume that somthing happened to make those things in the first place.
And you should never make assumptions... cause you make an *** out of yourself... and umptions.
And yet the fundamental basis of this YTMND fails to explain HOW 'God' can exist. If everything, according to your logic, has a prior cause that induces its existence, then clearly God had to have been created from something, and that something created by something, and so on. Furthermore, how can intelligence create non-intelligence? We have no concept as to what is the inability to think. You could theorize, but you cannot honestly say you are unable to imagine the actual concept of not being aware-
Your YTMND has fialed to convince me there is in fact a god. 1. You assume our universe is EVERYTHING. Who's to say what we consider a universe is nothing but the petri dish upon which a being smart beyond our comprehension is performing experiments? Could these be considered 'Gods?' Sure. Are the Christian 'God' Father of jesus? No. While this universe *may* have been created somehow, you have failed to prove to me that it was your 'God' thats in the bible. ***See next comment***
Could I edit your images, and change the word 'God' To allah or any number of other religous figureheads? Absolutely. The fact that you are likely North American, or European and so are the majority viewing said YTMND, does not make your arguement for your 'God' and greater than any other creation theories. Have you proven creation of somesort? Not necessarily. Do you know OUR universe, is THE ONLY universe? No, you dont. Do you fully understand the nature of universes? No, you dont. ***next***
Standard problems.
Planck time eliminates the problems of Thermodynamic Laws for an eternal universe, Quantum Physics showed a zero point for time, but not necessarily for existence... Also, you merely assert there cannot be an infinite regression, while the same condition of infinite regression occurs with God and his ability to cause any time in infinity.
Is it possible, that one universe can spawn, and 'Cause' Another one? Given the information we actually know about the entire universe, sure. All you have proven that something 'Caused' our universe to exist, and this fact alone does not prove the existance of and 'god' and DEFINATELY doesnt prove christianity.
An interesting, intelligent and provocative YTMND. 5'd for that...
However, the phrase "Come to be" is vague. There is a distinction between an atomic bomb causing an explosion and God causing the universe to exist.
The atomic bomb simply rearanged matter that was already around.
Creating matter out of nothing is an entirely different story.
We have causality to deal with how existing matter changes, not how it is created. Causality cannot apply to the creation of something out of nothing.
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Non intelligent things can produce intelligent things.
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Indeed scientists don't know how or what the universe exactly is.
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1 things scientists DO know is that if there was a god, he didn't create human.
We have the studies that 100% for sure proof that we came from the smallest bacterias in the seas.
great, so couldn't the big bang be the first cause?
You have proved that there is a cause, great, but you havn't proved a god, just a cause.
I can use the 'super natural' defense for the big bang. The same logic used in this also denies evolution, as that is intelligence rising from chaos, and evolution can be impirically studied and has been shown to be true.
The only evidence of god presented here, is that complexity cannot arise from simplicity + chance.
You're a pretentious moron to think that your entirely oversimplified and largely inadequate connections between observable events, and this concept of a "higher being" that created the entire universe could ever pass for a logical explanation. This concept of "god" ignorant bigotry in itself, for you to claim everyone is wrong, and that some "intelligent" (quite a relative term) being created all of this. Whats next, we all have to "worship" this god? Go beat your bible somewhere else.
You make the absurd suggestion that Intelligence can only be formed by intelligence, despite the studies on the evolution of the brain (IE. Natural Processes that lead to the brain)... Claiming god can simply be the first cause is like claiming that the universe is the first cause, as you simply establish whatever the first cause is to be supernatural. Well, I'll just claim the singularity fits the bill then...
Without taking the time to read the mountains of comments preceding mine, I want to point out that evolution has proven that intelligence *can* come from nonintelligence, albiet incredibly slowly, over millions of years. Of course, the knee-jerk reaction is to say "Well, God put the spark of intelligence there." To that, I have to say that that argument is circular reasoning, which you promised to avoid; that would be using your own theory to prove your theory true, which is a major logical fallacy.
Con
I watched the whole thing but think the whole "American president" thing was bullsh*t. I mean obviously there was nothing before Washington because no US president existed then. But since all things in theory that have a beginning were caused by something, shouldn't God have a cause? How can something exist if he created existence? You can't create what you're already living in.
I can't believe after all of the feedback you and Peterguy have received that you could only come up with two (strawman) objections to refute. And even more lame was the weakness of your refutations- "God was the Original Causer" (is that like being The Decider btw?) and "God wouldn't tempt himself"... does that mean he couldn't do it? Or are you just spouting the standard God-works-in-mysterious-ways answer to refute inconsistencies?
Also, acausality is a very logical possibility. Your "Law of Causality" is not a proven law, but one of several assumptions key to Scientific research. Remember that Science doesn't deal in Metaphysics, which is what is being discussed right now so causality should not be assumed. That aside, most causality claims I see just commit a Fallacy of Composition.
All this amounts to (like any Cosmological argument) is a slew of Naked assertions.
^^^^^^^I'm not reading all this sh*t above me. My scroll bar is tiny. SO I'll just state my mind and assume anyone with a brain has already said it: The one problem i see, is that this all assumes one thing: That a small, squishy, sophisticated series of tubes that interprets electrical impuses we call a brain, can understand the fundamental colockworks of the universe and, more importantly, assumes that a human created it. It's like those 4D sites. people think it's BS just becuase (see next comment)
it's pretty much the unmoved mover where something set in motion creation. however that theory has it's critics. i'll give you a 5 for the effort, i can't make a decent site to save my life, even when i strongly disagree with you. Anything i could have said in defense has already been said in the above comments
Meh, I used to use this argument when I was 12. It's bullsh*t. For your George Washington scenario, there was a cause behind that. You wouldn't ask 'who was president beforehand.' You'd ask, what led to his presidency. Surely he didn't wake up one day and bam, he was president. No being can create itself. Likewise, God would be infinitely more complex and intelligent than anything in the universe. If he could have just 'been,' then something else could have simply 'been. -continued in next post.
The infinite regression argument: Any "first cause" would also require a result of a previous cause. Example: the A-bomb in the YTMND is a result of scientific progress, engineering, technology, knowledge, etc. Therefore, God would have to be a product of such events that could regress into infinity. 3 because you obviously put a lot of work into it though.
Regarding this issue there are 2 knowns that make us realize that we know nothing. 1. Time stretches infinitely backwards. There may have been a beginning to our universe, but there was no beginning to space. 2. Space is infinite. It is an impossibility to not have occupiable space in any region of anything. It stretches infinitely. The only thing that varies is what, if anything, occupies this space. So, taking this information, our human logic tells us that our present being is impossible. -cont.
This is because time is, in fact, linear. Looking at a timeline, how would one have progressed from an infinitely backwards state of time to our current state. We are infinitely away from a certain point of time. This is both an impossibility and a fact. Now, does this prove that God does not exist? No, that's not what I'm trying to do. What it proves is, it's FAR more complex than singularity. Nobody knows what happened before singularity. Thus, anybody with ontological evidence is sorely mistaken.
You know what I hate...People who 1 this site..because they do NOT believe in this site so WHY come to it?Only f*cken blah blah racist stuff..stuff like that..will 1 this site because they do NOT get the meaning of this, and then they would say something like "LOL THERE IS NO GOD" well they're stupid EVERY single one of them, well, here's a question if god doesnt exist how do you suppose it created? by itself? Pssh ya right..how was civilization created? a monkey? lol retards...how was the monkey created..?
Okay, I also just read your reply about God creating "cause and effect," but what gives God the ability to create those actions? Wouldn't it be some sort of cause that allows it? Also, I find that efforts to prove God's existence and omnipotence are rooted in faith which usually (not necessarily in this case) clouds logical reasoning on the part of the faithful. I'm jest sayin'...
Bacteria? How was bacteria created? Atoms? Well how the hell was atoms created? You all are retarded, who vote 1, if you dont believe it, dont f*cken try to make other people believe your dumb sh*t religion, its getting old, god is real, the end, long speech over..Or is it?! NEDM? Lol,speeches. BRIAN NOOO..I cant fit anymore fads in there, good day.
On entropy: That applies to closed systems, which the Universe may, or may not be.
Finally: Everything has a cause. So what caused your mythical first cause? You haven't answered anything- you've pushed it off. If you can claim that God is the uncaused causer, I can claim, with equal validity, that the Big Bang is the uncaused causer. You provide no evidence that non-intelligence cannot cause intelligence, which brings into question many things, including the definition/existence of intelligence.
your logic is very flawed.
your stipulation that god be the 'first cause' is wholly arbitrary and one could just as easily ascribe it to some previous state of affairs in the universe prior to our previously known universe, which came to cause ours to exist. this could be some other universe which has force to cause our universe, but which we have no effect on.
second, surely life comes from non-life, did you not learn a thing from evolution in science class? if you believe in that surely you cannot a
What was before the universe or what caused it, is beyond our knowledge. Humans need reasons and explanations, so if we don't know them we make some up as we go. This is religion. People find comfort in believing in something higher rather than accepting that we are alone, and merely a product of coincidence combined with an infinite amount of time. Your reasoning appears to be scientific and logically correct, but really isn't based on anything.
There's only one error, an error that only a mind free of religion can ask. "If everything needs a beginning, then 'god' also would have needed to have an origin." You may say... "Well, he, she, it's god, therefore it doesn't," but that would ruin the theory that "proves" god's existance... It would also mean that time had no beginning, thus, making it non-existant. Sorry, but although this ytmnd does make you think about things, there is still a piece missing from the puzzle.
Objections:
1. Using your logic then something would have to create god which would set in motion an infinite pattern of creation of one greater being creating a lesser being.
2. There was no intelligent life at the formation of the universe, there was no life at all. Life on earth occurred when elements formed amino acids and evolved from there. The non-living created life (atleast on earth).
However, i'd like to say that it is very good reasoning.
I don't really feel like reading the rest of the rebuttals, so I'll just say this: First of all, in causality, the cause need not be greater than the effect. 1. We are flawed creatures living in a flawed universe. And so, the cause of this flawed existence would not fit your omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent "God" figure. 2. Intelligence can come about from non-intelligence. It's called adaptation/natural selection/evolution. Stop taking arguments from a philosophy book and prentending they're your own.
The claim that the reason we cannot make a square circle or a rock that he could not lift is because God didn't want that is a major cop-out. For one thing, we cannot know the motivations of God or any supernatural force, if any, because of our limited scale of understanding and subjective interpretation of our existance.
uh, what about the big bang? Isnt that the first cause? not god. also, intelligence can come from non-intelligence, through the extremelly slow process of evolution. We went from being nothing by clay crystals (according to the heterotroph hypothesis the first cells were just tiny bits of nucleic acid surrounded by a very simple water based membrane. We looked like crystals...weird. Scientists HAVE actually managed to produce these same organisms in a lab [life from nonlife]). Thus starting life+evolution
What about an infinite number of "first" cause? How do you prove that there is solely one? Just like inheritance. Everyone that inherits land, inherits it from someone. But to conclude that all inheritance comes from one person if incorrect. Using that argument, what is preventing there from being an infinite string of 'first causes' or actions into the past? I know that inheritance is a popular counter argument.. can't remember who it's from though.
2 things
1. While you may think the question "Who created God?" is flawed I ask you then instead, because causuality is the key to everything, what causuality created God? and if one didn't then how can something so powerful come from nothing(non intelligence to intelligence?)
2.How can you say that God is the one who created the universe? It could very well have been a similiarly powerful being.( Allah, Buddah, etc.
This proves nothing about god. It proves that something created the universe, not that there is a god watching over us. It is a fully illogically conclusion to come upon that "God" did that, especially not the christian god. In addition, if everything needs a cause, what caused god? Your logic is highly flawed, and I would love to discuss this further.
You don't make sense. If something must come to be from something before it then what was before God? You say thats like saying what president was before George Washington, but its entirly different. George Washington's parents created him, but what created God? The point is you can't prove or disprove his existance. Its all faith, you believe in Him and others don't. Deal with it.
First year philosophy student, ftl.
Your proposition fails, in that yes, causality is a universal scientific law, but the fact that the universe must necessarily have a cause does NOT in any way entail the fact that it's an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent being that exists necessarily and is the creator of all contingent things.
Life can come from non-life, too, putz.
Loss.
The flaw in this is, in your own argument in the "square-circle" analogy where God existed outside the laws of the world he created and thus could make them as he wished. This brings up the fact that if there is a super-natural outside of our 'natural' then it is also outside of the reality we perceive, and thus not following the cause and effect line of events
Taking this further if we still assume there was a first cause, we then have to throw out the arbitrary laws by which you define it.
Poland hates religion on YTMND. Also, everything in the universe since has come to be from a previous source since the singularity, a lot of which hasn't been influenced by intelligence, ie, the sun forming from a mass of gasses collapsing and heating up. So, who's to say that the actual cause of the universe itself is intellegent? Your going to a religious answer of a diety before trying to find an actual answer.
*Continued*
thus in the supernatural, there is no law stating life cannot be created by non-life, or intelligence from non-intelligence. essentially you are throwing away the laws of the natural pertaining to the supernatural in one location and imposing them on it in another to come up with your perfect mental creation: God
1.) Does not provide evidence to Christian God. 2.) The idea of the prime mover has been around since Aristotle. . . Yet he believed in pagan gods. 3.) The big bang was not necessarily the beginning of existence, it may have been the beginning of this "generation" of the universe. 4.) life can come from non-life (abiogenesis, look into it). Intelligence can come from non-intelligence. Perhaps you've heard of evolutionary engineering?
But if everything happened by chance (as many presume or think, stuff like Big Bang etc.) then what are the chances that the Sun (which is located in the right place, not too far, or not too close to the Earth) is placed right where it is now? probably 1 in a googol. It seems like that was meant to be there. Same thing can be said about almost anything. It sounds like this was planned out, doesn't it?
Guess what? People who already believed this are praising you, people who didn't are arguing against it, and you are changing the views of nobody, making this ytmnd completely pointless. Meanwhile, there's a very large chance that nobody has come close to the actual truth of how the universe came into being. In summation, All Hail Discordia.
Your logic is completely flawed. This is absolute horse dick. You're using a circular explanation to place God as the First Cause... God is the first cause because He is God? No way man. You claim to follow the scientific method, but there's nothing scientific about your argument. Why isn't the universe the first cause? There was nothing before it right? And nothing can't cause something according to your logic.
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