Christian Martyrdom
Created on: September 5th, 2006
Luke 21:12 "But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake." Also go here http:
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What most people don't seem to understand is that the Crusades were more politically motivated than religiously. Early Christians used to perform a pilgrimage to Jerusalem, much like the Islamic Hajj. However, an increasing number of these pilgrims were being attacked, robbed, and killed in the desert. As a military campaign, the crusades were overreactionary and ultimately futile, and today the Catholic church does not mandate a pilgrimage. Just something to keep in mind.
Peterguy wasn't martyred. Also, everyone dies. Also, Christians killing Christians isn't really martyrdom, it's just a religious war. This is obviously meant to be an homage to Christians who died, but only violently. What about all of the non-christians that were killed for their faith? What is the point of this whole exercise? Calling for an end to e-flame by sensationalizing it and relating it to mass murder? Wtf talk about propoganda.
Wall of text crits you for 10000 damage Wall of text crits you for 10000 damage Wall of text crits you for 10000 damage Wall of text crits you for 10000 damage Wall of text crits you for 10000 damage Wall of text crits you for 10000 damage Wall of text crits you for 10000 damage Wall of text crits you for 10000 damage Wall of text crits you for 10000 damage Wall of text crits you for 10000 damage Wall of text crits you for 10000 damage Wall of text crits you for 10000 damage Wall of text crits you for 10000
I started impressed, but that faded after the explicit anti-Catholic overtones that this carries (it is at best "unbalanced" in it's approach who historical martyrs are). I admit that Catholics have done their fair share of persecutions, burnings, etc... While these are not excusable, the Protestants have made martyrs of many Catholics (Thomas Moore, Edmund Campion and such). So, while I think your intial approach begins "unbaised", it does not end so.
...mixed. Being a Christian myself, Catholic specifically, I sympathize with you on the world's misunderstanding of us and our relationship with Jesus. However, I find it hard to bring myself to agree with either of your agendas: the conversion and the implied anti-Catholic. Furthermore, I doubt this is the correct forum for this kind of discussion. So...midvote.
Poor you. Having all these people disagreeing with you on the internet. Life is hard for the dominant religion, eh? Christianity has had the upper hand on the world for a good thousand years now, it's about time logic and reason started to win back ground. This holier-than-thou attitude is starting to get on my nerves.
On another note - if Christianity hadn't been writing history for the last thousand years, and if the task weren't such a great undertaking, and if the comments box were big enough, I'd bring up some statistics of how many innocent people Christians have killed in the last thousand years for their god.
I'm going to continue my last post.
I'm a strong Christian myself and I hate seeing people spew words like that.
From what I gather Peterguy has been rude, though, to other people.
If you really want to do anything for Christians, if you really want to change the world, if you really want to have people become a part of Christianity, you don't do so by being rude to other people. You do that with kindness, compassion, and friendship. Pushing people will not help them see anything.
-2 for flaming catholics. They were very misguided people who had been told wrong by their leaders (power does seem to corrupt all). Now the church dosn't seem to be so worthless anymore and they are heading in the right direction...I go to a catholic church...although I don't do that pray to mary "stuf" and ect. Like I said, they seem to be heading in a better direction, you lost a bit of my respect.
There's three groups here that seem to aggravate the debate more than anyone else: Christians who subscribe to the "You sin, you go to hell and you die!" school of sharing Christianity, people who assume any and all Christians are fanatical zealots with no understanding of science, and people who rip on the others without understanding their opponent's beliefs. If you can't make a rational argument without cursing or disregarding another person's argument because they aren't on your side, don't post.
okay, so to recap, you hate catholics.
dude, f*ck you. white protestants started the KKK. Little known fact:
(drumroll) the KKK hates catholics, and regularly killed them before moving their violence into secrecy. Last I checked, around 90% of those deaths must be in ireland, and even i hate those f*cking extremists. And at the same time, there's just as much catholic killing going on. just because you started more nobly doesn't make you better you f*ckwad. Christianity is about atonement,
Also, f*ck you hard.
"Catholics aren't true Christians. Martin Luther did
not kill a single person but supported a POLITICAL action of suppressing
violent and revolting peasants. Luther is so much a Red Herring here."
yeah, a f*cking red herring of death.
you really fail to present any holding argument as to why catholics aren't christians. Last i checked, a christian was defined as a person who believes in the holiness of Jesus Of Nazareth, known to christians as Jesus Christ.
catholics were christians before martin luther said sh*t. In fact, the catholic church preaches more of a doctrine of kindness and goodwill than blind belief in jesus, as many protestant churches do. In fact, before his death, Pope John Paul II stated that it was "likely that non-christians could get into heaven, so long as they followed the main tenets of The Church." These 'tenets' are the commandments, which are general human nature anyway. In any case, f*ck you and your argument.
Martin Luther began with an idea which was pure: the concept of the poor being able to enter heaven without paying for atonement, a practice never condoned by the catholic church in the first place.
however, as he rose to power, he founded Lutheranism, and proceeded to kill thousands upon thousands of peasants who wished for nothing more than the right to practice their own religion. You have a disgustingly grotesque excuse for a mind, and you will undoubtedly burn in the fires of motherf*cking hell.
Hey, don't forget, God's the first one to ever martyr a Christian, and if you want to talk wholesale slaughter of someone for their religious beliefs, I'd look to the Jews first. Christians have it historically easy compared to other religions, and honestly, they do a lot of martyring themselves, you just don't hear about it as much. To the tune of 50,000 now in Iraq.
Loss.
You want stars? Make a ytmnd about how stupid it is to kill ANYONE for a belief.
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Death sucks. You should have included bruno. I like the idea, except that including comments from this site as examples of persecution is somewhat foolish. I also don't think the fact that people die for a cause justifies the cause. In conclusion, I like the history and the tone, but I don't like the religious advocacy. Midvote.
Umm, I did not watch the whole thing. You showed your stupidity right at the beginning by saying the crucifiction of Christ was AD 30....um...I am not big bible buff or anything but wouldn't his death be AD 0 Since AD=After death, furthermore he died at 33, so unless he died at 3 and was ressurected and nobody told me, but everyone decided that was the death to start the christian calendar with, you should at least try and learn a little something about the Faith you seem to love so much.
"Stop making an extra account to sponsor your own YTMNDs based 100% in horsesh*t. A much larger % of the atheist community has suffered for its beliefs. All this YTMND does is prove how religion causes suffering." I don't have the money to sponsor accounts...I'm sorry you're suffering. I'll make sure to call Amnesty International.
"Why are you singling out Protestants? Be it Protestant,
Catholic, or Orthodox, we all believe in the one true God, the Holy Trinity and the Apolistic Church, and stand together, along with the rest ofhumanity." No, no quoting the Nicen creed. It's said every Catholic mass for a reason, because it's what that sec believes in. The origianl church split into Eastern Orthodox and Catholic over the issue of the trinity. (Eastern Orthodox doesn't believe in the trinity as the other branches do, IIRC.)
And the Apolistic church line is refering to how Catholics hold Peter to be the first pope. Since Protestants don't believe in the in the Pope's authority they wouldn't agree with that line. Oh, and also, about Nazis, well, there's a reason Nazi belt buckles had, "God is with us" printed on them. ;)
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"Just a small question, though. If you don't think catholics are
true christians, and only protestants are, to the extent that you only
mention protestant christians in your conclusions, why is it that you also
mention events of like 34 AD, while protestantism as we know it didn't
emerge until the 16th Century?"
I'm still waiting for an answer.
First let me say YOU ARROGENT F*CKER! You are not a martyr and neither is Peterguy, you presented bullsh*t arguments to try to make your beliefs seem like more than just faith, and we called you on it. Don't present a fallicitous argument if you're not prepared for a counter-argument. Oh, and you failed to mention all the people that christians themselves have killed in the name of Mr. Jeezybits, hell, a good deal of your martyrs were killed by other christians even. Don't pretend that christians have been innocent victims throughout history. You are not the only religion on earth, you have NO reason to complain. Congradulations, you have just put yourself on the level of the dirty hobos who scream from street corners.
"I choose to live a good life and not follow a religion. Am I going to hell?"
According to Dante's Inferno, you're going to Limo, where all the virtuous pagans(non-christians) go, so you know all the groovy people are gonna be there. Basically it's like earth, not heaven, and not hell, if you believe such things.
and they were killed because they couldn't understand one very simple thing..what you believe should be for you and you alone if you want to be a good Christian help those around you and be kind in day to day life while following what YOU believe in rather than trying to get others to believe what you do. I'll give this at least a 2 for the work put into it...but your even starting to piss max off this this stuff so cool it and keep ytmnd god in your heart and off ytmnd.
If you made this to call attention to the tragic loss of life at the hands of ignorance, I applaud you. If you did it to generate controversy and negativity towards you, to create a self-fulfilling prophecy, I shun you. Either way, the internet breeds hatred far easier than it does love, and that's something you have to live with. There's evil in every man.
Man! If YTMND suddently starts becoming a Christian society, it will be thanks to you and Peterguy! You bring the light to thoes without it! Try Newgrounds next, man! And tell me if I can help in some way! You are really great guy! Im really proud the world still has people like you! And you are not spreading good agressivly such as many. Never stop doing it! :)
Maybe in the intellectualite circle's it's common for non-Christianity is precedent but polls have shown that atheists are among the smallest and most dislike minorities in the United States(this being in a country with religous freedom).
I was not saying they are persecuted but more disliked. However this needs to be addressed. Of course the Christians are more persecuted because of their larger numbers. The fact that Christians are slaughtered in slews of number in Darfur does not mean they are more disliked/hated then Atheists. The truth is their are not many atheists to go around killing in Extremist areas. A muslim controlled state is more likely to be anti-atheist then anti-Christian.
quote Koran 5:80-82
You would see many of them allying themselves with those who disbelieve. Miserable indeed is what their hands have sent forth on behalf of their souls. GOD is angry with them and, consequently, they will abide forever in retribution.Had they believed in GOD, and the prophet, and in what was revealed to him herein, they would not have befriended them. But many of them are evil.You will find that the worst enemies of the believers are the Jews and the idol worshipers. And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian." This is because they have priests and monks among them, and they are not arrogant.
Clearly Christians have more favor with the Islam religion the other denomination. If Jews were placed in regions where Christians are persecuted they would undergo similar if not worse torture. The Jews are protected from this by the fact that they have their own separate state in the Middle East, which just happens to be d
Out of love for the truth and the desire to bring it to light,
the following propositions will be discussed at Wittenberg, under
the presidency of the Reverend Father Martin Luther, Master of Arts and
of Sacred Theology, and Lecturer in Ordinary on the same at that
place. Wherefore he requests that those who are unable to be present and
debate orally with us, may do so by letter. In the Name our Lord Jesus
Christ. Amen. 1. Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ, when He said
Poenitentiam agite, willed that the whole life of believers should be
repentance. 2. This word cannot be understood to mean sacramental penance,
i.e., confession and satisfaction, which is administered by the priests.
3. Yet it means not inward repentance only; nay, there is no inward
repentance which does not outwardly work divers mortifications of the
flesh. 4. The penalty [of sin], therefore, continues so long as hatred of
self continues; for this is the true inward repentance, and continues
until our entrance into the kingdom
aven. 5. The pope does not intend to remit, and cannot remit any penalties
other than those which he has imposed either by his own authority or by
that of the Canons. 6. The pope cannot remit any guilt, except
by declaring that it has been remitted by God and by assenting to
God's remission; though, to be sure, he may grant remission in cases
reserved to his judgment. If his right to grant remission in such cases
were despised, the guilt would remain entirely unforgiven. 7. God remits
guilt to no one whom He does not, at the same time, humble in all things
and bring into subjection to His vicar, the priest. 8. The penitential
canons are imposed only on the living, and, according to them, nothing
should be imposed on the dying. 9. Therefore the Holy Spirit in the pope
is kind to us, because in his decrees he always makes exception of the
article of death and of necessity. 10. Ignorant and wicked are the doings
of those priests who, in the case of the dying, reserve canonical penances
for purg
tory, since it is very near to the horror of despair. 16. Hell, purgatory,
and heaven seem to differ as do despair, almost-despair, and the assurance
of safety. 17. With souls in purgatory it seems necessary that horror
should grow less and love increase. 18. It seems unproved, either by
reason or Scripture, that they are outside the state of merit, that is to
say, of increasing love. 19. Again, it seems unproved that they, or at
least that all of them, are certain or assured of their own
blessedness, though we may be quite certain of it. 20. Therefore by "full
remission of all penalties" the pope means not actually "of all," but only
of those imposed by himself. 21. Therefore those preachers of indulgences
are in error, who say that by the pope's indulgences a man is freed from
every penalty, and saved; 22. Whereas he remits to souls in purgatory
no penalty which, according to the canons, they would have had to pay in
this life. 23. If it is at all possible to grant to any one the rem
ission can be granted only to the most perfect, that is, to the
very fewest. 24. It must needs be, therefore, that the greater part of
the people are deceived by that indiscriminate and highsounding promise
of release from penalty. 25. The power which the pope has, in a
general way, over purgatory, is just like the power which any bishop or
curate has, in a special way, within his own diocese or parish. 26. The
pope does well when he grants remission to souls [in purgatory], not by
the power of the keys (which he does not possess), but by way of
intercession. 27. They preach man who say that so soon as the penny
jingles into the money-box, the soul flies out [of purgatory]. 28. It is
certain that when the penny jingles into the money-box, gain and avarice
can be increased, but the result of the intercession of the Church is in
the power of God alone. 29. Who knows whether all the souls in purgatory
wish to be bought out of it, as in the legend of Sts. Severinus and
Paschal. 30. No one is
sure that his own contrition is sincere; much less that he has
attained full remission. 31. Rare as is the man that is truly penitent, so
rare is also the man who truly buys indulgences, i.e., such men are
most rare. 32. They will be condemned eternally, together with
their teachers, who believe themselves sure of their salvation because
they have letters of pardon. 33. Men must be on their guard against those
who say that the pope's pardons are that inestimable gift of God by which
man is reconciled to Him; 34. For these "graces of pardon" concern only
the penalties of sacramental satisfaction, and these are appointed
by man. 35. They preach no Christian doctrine who teach that contrition
is not necessary in those who intend to buy souls out of purgatory or to
buy confessionalia. 36. Every truly repentant Christian has a right to
full remission of penalty and guilt, even without letters of pardon.
37. Every true Christian, whether living or dead, has part in all the
blessings of Christ a
nd the Church; and this is granted him by God, even without letters
of pardon. 38. Nevertheless, the remission and participation [in
the blessings of the Church] which are granted by the pope are in no way
to be despised, for they are, as I have said, the declaration of
divine remission. 39. It is most difficult, even for the very
keenest theologians, at one and the same time to commend to the people
the abundance of pardons and [the need of] true contrition. 40.
True contrition seeks and loves penalties, but liberal pardons only
relax penalties and cause them to be hated, or at least, furnish an
occasion [for hating them]. 41. Apostolic pardons are to be preached with
caution, lest the people may falsely think them preferable to other good
works of love. 42. Christians are to be taught that the pope does not
intend the buying of pardons to be compared in any way to works of mercy.
43. Christians are to be taught that he who gives to the poor or lends to
the needy does a better work than buy
ng pardons; 44. Because love grows by works of love, and man
becomes better; but by pardons man does not grow better, only more free
from penalty. 45. 45. Christians are to be taught that he who sees a man
in need, and passes him by, and gives [his money] for pardons, purchases
not the indulgences of the pope, but the indignation of God. 46.
Christians are to be taught that unless they have more than they need,
they are bound to keep back what is necessary for their own families, and
by no means to squander it on pardons. 47. Christians are to be taught
that the buying of pardons is a matter of free will, and not of
commandment. 48. Christians are to be taught that the pope, in granting
pardons, needs, and therefore desires, their devout prayer for him more
than the money they bring. 49. Christians are to be taught that the pope's
pardons are useful, if they do not put their trust in them; but altogether
harmful, if through them they lose their fear of God. 50. Christians are
to be taugh
t that if the pope knew the exactions of the pardon-preachers, he would
rather that St. Peter's church should go to ashes, than that it should be
built up with the skin, flesh and bones of his sheep. 51. Christians are
to be taught that it would be the pope's wish, as it is his duty, to give
of his own money to very many of those from whom certain hawkers of
pardons cajole. 52. The assurance of salvation by letters of pardon is
vain, even though the commissary, nay, even though the pope himself, were
to stake his soul upon it. 53. They are enemies of Christ and of the pope,
who bid the Word of God be altogether silent in some Churches, in order
that pardons may be preached in others.
54. Injury is done the Word of God when, in the same sermon, an equal or a
longer time is spent on pardons than on this Word. 55. It must be the
intention of the pope that if pardons, which are a very small thing, are
celebrated with one bell, with single processions and ceremonies, then the
Gospel, which is the very greatest thing, should be preached with a
hundred bells, a hundred processions, a hundred ceremonies. 56. The
"treasures of the Church," out of which the pope. grants indulgences, are
not sufficiently named or known among the people of Christ. 57. That they
are not temporal treasures is certainly evident, for many of the vendors
do not pour out such treasures so easily, b
ut only gather them. 58. Nor are they the merits of Christ and the Saints,
for even without the pope, these always work grace for the inner man, and
the cross, death, and hell for the outward man. 59. St. Lawrence said that
the treasures of the Church were the Church's poor, but he spoke according
to the usage of the word in his own time. 60. Without rashness we say that
the keys of the Church, given by Christ's merit, are that treasure; 61.
For it is clear that for the remission of penalties and of reserved cases,
the power of the pope is of itself sufficient. 62. The true treasure of
the Church is the Most Holy Gospel of the glory and the grace of God. 63.
But this treasure is naturally most odious, for it makes the first to be
last. 64. On the other hand, the treasure of indulgences is naturally most
acceptable, for it makes the last to be first. 65. Therefore the treasures
of the Gospel are nets with which they formerly were wont to fish for men
of riches. 66. The treasures of t
he indulgences are nets with which they now fish for the riches of men.
67. The indulgences which the preachers cry as the "greatest graces" are
known to be truly such, in so far as they promote gain. 68. Yet they are
in truth the very smallest graces compared with the grace of God and the
piety of the Cross. 69. Bishops and curates are bound to admit the
commissaries of apostolic pardons, with all reverence. 70. But still more
are they bound to strain all their eyes and attend with all their ears,
lest these men preach their own dreams instead of the commission of the
pope. 71. He who speaks against the truth of apostolic pardons, let him be
anathema and accursed! 72. But he who guards against the lust and license
of the pardon-preachers, let him be blessed! 73. The pope justly thunders
against those who, by any art, contrive the injury of the traffic in
pardons. 74. But much more does he intend to thunder against those who use
the pretext of pardons to contrive the injury of holy lov
75. To think the papal pardons so great that they could absolve a man
even if he had committed an impossible sin and violated the Mother of God
-- this is madness. 76. We say, on the contrary, that the papal pardons
are not able to remove the very least of venial sins, so far as its guilt
is concerned. 77. It is said that even St. Peter, if he were now
Pope, could not bestow greater graces; this is blasphemy against St. Peter
and against the pope. 78. We say, on the contrary, that even the
present pope, and any pope at all, has greater graces at his disposal; to
wit, the Gospel, powers, gifts of healing, etc., as it is written in I.
Corinthians xii. 79. To say that the cross, emblazoned with the papal
arms, which is set up [by the preachers of indulgences], is of equal worth
with the Cross of Christ, is blasphemy. 80. The bishops, curates and
theologians who allow such talk to be spread among the people, will have
an account to render. 81. This unbridled preaching of pardons makes it no
eas
y matter, even for learned men, to rescue the reverence due to the
pope from slander, or even from the shrewd questionings of the laity. 82.
To wit: -- "Why does not the pope empty purgatory, for the sake of holy
love and of the dire need of the souls that are there, if he redeems an
infinite number of souls for the sake of miserable money with which to
build a Church? The former reasons would be most just; the latter is
most trivial." 83. Again: -- "Why are mortuary and anniversary masses for
the dead continued, and why does he not return or permit the withdrawal of
the endowments founded on their behalf, since it is wrong to pray for
the redeemed?" 84. Again: -- "What is this new piety of God and the
pope, that for money they allow a man who is impious and their enemy to
buy out of purgatory the pious soul of a friend of God, and do not rather,
because of that pious and beloved soul's own need, free it for pure
love's sake?" 85. Again: -- "Why are the penitential canons long since
in actual fa
86. Again: -- "Why does not the pope, whose wealth is to-day greater
than the riches of the richest, build just this one church of St. Peter
with his own money, rather than with the money of poor believers?" 87.
Again: -- "What is it that the pope remits, and what participation does he
grant to those who, by perfect contrition, have a right to full remission
and participation?" 88. Again: -- "What greater blessing could come to
the Church than if the pope were to do a hundred times a day what he now
does once, and bestow on every believer these remissions
and participations?" 89. "Since the pope, by his pardons, seeks
the salvation of souls rather than money, why does he suspend the
indulgences and pardons granted heretofore, since these have equal
efficacy?" 90. To repress these arguments and scruples of the laity by
force alone, and not to resolve them by giving reasons, is to expose the
Church and the pope to the ridicule of their enemies, and to make
Christians unhappy.
91. If, therefore, pardons were preached according to the spirit and
mind of the pope, all these doubts would be readily resolved; nay, they
would not exist. 92. Away, then, with all those prophets who say to the
people of Christ, "Peace, peace," and there is no peace! 93. Blessed be
all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, "Cross, cross," and
there is no cross! 94. Christians are to be exhorted that they be diligent
in following Christ, their Head, through penalties, deaths, and hell;
If you celebrate Christmas on December 25th and Easter on whatever the f*ck day in April you are just as pagan as Catholics are, so gtfo. Jesus was born in Spring, so Christmas is just an excuse to party near the winter solstice. Easter is the name of a f*cking Indo-european goddess of fertility -- hence bunnies and eggs. Unless you eschew these holidays you are just as pagan and un-christian as Catholics are.
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